Just a light hearted post for you all this Monday morning, enclosing some little things I just wanted to share with you. It’ll give you all some extra time to digest my last post, which went down like a lead balloon!
Words are funny things sometimes.
I’ve spoken about Australian words in the past, but this is going to be a bit different. Initially, it was only going to be about how to pronounce a particular word that was annoying me, but then it developed into a fully fledged post. Enjoy!
1. Questionable Pronunciation
Is there a correct pronunciation for ‘neither’? Is it nigh-ther or nee-ther?
It’s the kind of thing that doesn’t bother a regular person, but when you’re a public speaker you want to be getting it right.
In the past, I’ve always said ‘nigh-ther’, but hearing some educated men say ‘nee-ther’ I gave it a trial. To be honest, it felt totally weird, and mispronounced. What’s your take?
I’ve had to be very careful with pronunciation since coming to Australia. Northern Irish people say some things pretty weird, like ‘immediately’ pronounced ‘im-mege-itely’, or ‘film’ pronounced ‘fil-im’.
Also, why do we say, Amen as Ay-men rather than Ah-men? My Bible pronunciation shows that the ‘A’ is the same as in the word ‘father’, and not like the word ‘tame’.
2. Bizarre Phraseology
There’s also some ‘Ulster preacher phraseology’ that I’ve become aware of. Like, “We’ll begin reading at the verse…”. Why do we stick ‘the’ in there? It doesn’t really need to be there, does it?
You also hear Northern Irish preachers on about, “the land of….[insert foreign country]” which I find rather amusing.
When we’re going on holiday, we say, “We’re going to Spain”. But, when someone is going as a missionary, they go to, ‘the land of Spain’.
3. Clichéd Prayer
I remembering reading Spurgeon discussing the problem of clichés in prayer. He didn’t like them at all; particularly when they were misquoted passages of scripture.
Things like, ‘where two or three are gathered together, there you are in the midst‘, leaving out the critical “in thy name”. Or, “eye hath not seen, nor ear heard…” being used to refer to Heaven, when it’s not really about Heaven at all.
Granted, it takes deliberate effort to avoid falling into clichés. We’re creatures of habit, and that doesn’t help. However, if we conversed with God with an open heart, it might help us.
To help me, I try to talk to God like He’s a person, because — shockingly — He is!
We were reading Psalm 38 in our congregation yesterday, and it’s the perfect example of a man pouring out his heart honestly to God. Preachers should discourage clichés as it kills public prayer meetings. That’s why it’s so refreshing to hear a youth pray, because they’re less likely to string the same old phrases together.
Away with the clichés, and talk to God dear Christian!
Final notes…
- I added a script which gives you the verse to scripture references. So, if I write John 3:16, or even Jn 3:16, you should be able to hover over it to get the verse as found in the Authorised Version. The same goes for references you may give in your comments.
- You may have noticed that I’ve added a Sermon Audio script to the top of the sidebar. I’ll change this each time the audio people at church put up my latest message.
- A blog I came across recently, just posted an article about a translation matter in the TNIV. I’m not linking to it because of the discussion, but because the Bible quotation had me laughing quite hard. The passage quoted is Col 4:10-14 from the NLT, but it was v14 that tickled me, where it says, “Dear Doctor Luke…”. It’s probably just my archaic mind, but I found it amusing.
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Added Commentary
By Davey Boyd
on 07.10.08
1. “nigh-ther” works for me.
2. our Ulster preacher phraseology is our lame attempt at sounding serious and authoritative… or perhaps worse still, we’re being sanctimonious?
3. Clichéd Prayer - guilty as charged.
By kristarella
on 07.10.08
I say both nee-ther and nigh-ther, don’t know what determines which one comes out of my mouth, but both have.
I say Ah-men though, do you mean that you say Ay-men in Northern Ireland or Tassy?
Never heard of ‘Ulster preacher phraseology’, nor those phrases that you mentioned
By Armen
on 07.10.08
Davey,
I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s sanctimonious. In most cases I don’t even think it’s an attempt to make something appear serious either.
To be honest, I think it’s a case of just doing what others do, without giving it much thought. It’s like teenagers who use words like ‘wicked’ to describe something that’s good/cool without thinking of the real meaning.
kristarella,
So you say both? Doesn’t one feel more awkward than the other?
They say Ay-men in Northern Ireland, generally.
I’m sure there are Aussie preacher phrases too. It would just be a matter of spending a year or two in one of the main denominations, and observing the odd phrases used across the board by the preachers.
By Irwin
on 09.10.08
Neither can be pronounced either way ( i-ther) or is that ee-ther way?
Ah well its time for bed or is that beed in North Antrim.
By Armen
on 09.10.08
Irwin,
English is a weird language…
By Peter
on 09.10.08
Ha, the Australian version of English is the One True Language you know
Although, I do have to admit that upon returning to Australia after 9 months in Canada my ears were a little taken aback at the harsh sound of the Aussie vernacular…still, Canadians had the cheek to mistake me for an Englishman or a South African!! My counsellor is still dealing with it….
I’m a ni-ther and nee-ther agnostic, but I would always stick with an Ay-men over an Ah-men if you don’t mind Ar-men. Oh, and unlike my posh-wannabe countrymen in Adelaide, referring to dahn-cing is ridiculous but dan-cing is perfectly ok by me.
PS In addition to your point above, I’ve often heard NI preachers refer to “…chapter X and the verse number…” which always amused me.
By MrCorey
on 11.10.08
Eether or IIther it seems.
By Glenn
on 13.10.08
Well… as far as the correct pronunciation of neither…you give two options Armen. Far be it from me, to go against popular opinion
but I would say that neither,/i> of your two suggestions are correct.
You have…
“nigh” ther, and “knee”ther, I hereby proclaim that the first half of the word should rhyme with “aye”, “my”, and “lie” (as in lie down). Thus it is n-aye-ther. Acts 4:12
As for your next two points…isn’t it wonderful, no matter what “mistakes” we make, isn’t it wonderful that God looks upon the heart.
By Armen
on 13.10.08
Peter,
South African?? I’ll never again be worried for mistaking a Canadian for an American. Mistaking an Aussie for a South African is probably as off-base as is possible without speaking a different language! lol
To be honest, I still say Ay-men sometimes too. Particularly mid-prayer when in agreement with another persons prayer. But, I do say Ah-men as a general rule at the end of my prayers now.
“verse number…“ is a good one! I’m probably guilty, but I’ll be watching out for it from now on
Corey,
Hey, long time no speak my friend!
Now why didn’t I think of that? That lovely lady just put me out of my ‘misery’. Thanks!
Glenn,
Ok, I confess…..I’m totally puzzled!
How do you say ‘nigh’? Doesn’t it rhyme with ‘my’?
By Irwin
on 13.10.08
I’m not surprised your puzzled after Glenn’s response. I can think of a few pronunciations of each of his examples
Aye = pronounced ‘I’ (meaning yes) (The aye’s have it when they win a vote in parliament)
Aye = pronounces ‘eye’ (meaning always) (He aye gets it wrong - North Antrim again)
Lie (as in lie down as glenn suggests)
But some say Lay down spelled Lie but pronounced in between lie & Lay (Li down ye boy ye - when talking to the dog (doag))
I think you can guess ‘my’ is similar e.g. me mammy (my mummy)
Language is in a state of flux always changing so as I say it does not matter - eether neether or eye-ther ni-ther is ok
By Glenn
on 13.10.08
mmm…I reserve the right to be wrong
…but, unless I am very much mistaken, “nigh” should rhyme with “high” (and “eye”, “night”, etc.)
By Glenn
on 13.10.08
You posted a few seconds before me Irwin, I assumed we were talking about “English” as opposed to Ulster-Scots colloquialisms! I am also not convinced that there are two pronunciations of neither…in “Queens’ English”
By Glenn
on 13.10.08
Well, our friends on Dictionary.com, compare the pronunciation of “neither”, with “either”, and there seems to be an American influence at work here!
No matter, I am 100% convinced that there would be no misunderstanding of the intended meaning, whichever pronunciation was used.
About your final notes Armen…I like the reftagger! It even works in comments!
By Irwin
on 13.10.08
Glenn
The Queens English? - I think the queen might say ‘Noi-ther’ or oi-ther!
But your right it was Ulster Scots pronociation of English words -quite a lot of Ulster Scots words are in the Oxford English dictionary - abane, oxter etc and other languages arealso - French words, latin, Saxon. Gone are the days when a ‘burger’ was someone entitled to a vote in an English City 300 years ago!
By Armen
on 13.10.08
[observes with much amusement]
By Glenn
on 13.10.08
I am glad to see somebody is finding this amusing!
I am furious that you will all not just admit that I (pronounced “aye”) am right!
.
.
.
.
.
LOL!
By Irwin
on 13.10.08
Glen you say “our friends on Dictionary.com, compare the pronunciation of “neither”, with “either” ”
OK but then either depends on how neither is pronounced and neither depends on how either is pronounced - circular arguement? LOL
By Armen
on 13.10.08
Irwin,
Whatever the case, you better hide….you forgot the double ‘n’ in Glenn’s name!
But you’re right. I pronounce ‘either’ the same way as ‘neither’.
Glenn,
Admittedly, maybe using ‘nigh’ was a bad rhyming replacement to show ‘i-ther’.
By Glenn
on 13.10.08
Phew…
.
.
.
I am calming down now…
By Gillian Sloss
on 28.04.09
Armen….very impressed with the website!!!..I don’t usually reply to this sort of stuff…infact, i’ve never!!!….it’s usually geoff ..but i’m sure he’ll have his own opinion on it….he’s very interested in the english language….even has a book about full stops, coma’s & apostrophes…he showed me this when we were dating….i thought, this is it….this is the man i gotta marry!!!…..anyway…I would say….nigh-ther…maybe it’s because I’m not that educated??….or maybe just the culture…copy everyone else so you don’t appear to be different??….anyway…another thought, us folk from n.i. just love to repeat ourselves or rather confirm what we’ve just said, ie, there’s the door, “so it is”….cracks me up!!….anyway…there you go…i’ve never replied to a blog….you’re very privileged, so you are!!!
and I’ve just gone and realised this was written back in oct 08….why am i always behind the programme!!! oh well….hope you enjoyed the read….taker easy, gil (’,')
By Armen
on 29.04.09
Hey Gillian,
I feel very priviledged indeed. Geoff should have had you trained up in this blog commenting stuff by now. I’m disappointed [joke].
Funny you should say that Geoff has an interest in English. I’ve noticed one or two words being thrown into his sentences, which aren’t exactly common.
I’ll maybe have to borrow the book which won your heart.
As for the appended repetition when statements are made by folks from Northern Ireland, I can’t believe I didn’t include that in this post. It’s a classic!
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