Romans 8:28 has to be one of the most quoted (and misunderstood) verses in all the Bible. However, look around you. Do many people prove it to be true?
Christian, when you get your fingers caught in a door that’s been slammed shut, do you realise it’s supposed to work together for your good?
Christian, when your house gets broken into, and many of your valuables are stolen, do you realise it’s supposed to work together for your good?
Christian, when a loved one dies unexpectedly, or lets say your child is born without arms or legs, do you realise it’s supposed to work together for your good?
Nick Vujicic, an Australian, was born without limbs. His Christian parents initially found it difficult to deal with, and when he was old enough to understand, so did Nick. However, now as a young man, Nick is proving to the world that it isn’t circumstances that cause one to be happy, it’s your attitude. By the grace of God, Nick lives in a spirit of gratitude and joy, even though he’ll never be able to do the things the rest of us take for granted.
Watch the video, and see how God has enabled him to live independantly.
With Nick in mind, I felt I should address a touchy subject; depression. Those who really know me, know I am sympathetic towards those with clinical depression. However, I must confess, my conviction is that, although it may be a real illness just like any other, it’s an illness that unlike others, the fruit of depression is in direct contradiction with the will of God:
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy…and they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” Galatians 5:22-25
As the scriptures are clear that God wants us to “walk in the Spirit”, it must be assumed that joy will be an evident fruit in such a walk. To not live this way, is to live in “the flesh” and is therefore sinful. If you’re depressed, I’m not condemning you, but I am rebuking you (in accordance with 2 Tim 4:2). Repent of sin, cry to God for mercy, (as with any other sin), and ask Him to fill you with the Spirit of joy, in accordance with His will.
But like you said, all things work together for good. Isn’t the affliction of depression included in that?
Putting it bluntly, no not really. If you read through Romans 8:28, into v29, you will discover the good that is to come from everything that happens in our lives. It is that we might be “conformed to the image of His Son”. How do we conform to the image of Christ? By walking in the Spirit. As the Spirit doesn’t will us to be depressed, but joyful, we conclude that depression is not working together for your good, but it’s purpose is most likely to bring about repentance. Whatever it was (and it may be a diverse range of things) that caused you to enter into a state of depression, God never desired them to do so. He desired you to claim his power, and rejoice in the afflictions which have befallen you.
Conclusion
I am aware this may be difficult for some to accept. God knows I understand where you’re coming from. However, I have prayed, and it is my earnest desire, you will take this as a loving, tender rebuke from one who understands. The devil alone kills joy, not our God.
May God help us all to keep things in perspective. Nick will never be able to put his arms around his wife. He will never be able to hug his children.
Note - After posting this, I’ve read it over and over again. I just know someone’s going to take it the wrong way, and think I don’t understand. I beg of God that this won’t happen. Read the comments too, they may help clarify what I mean, in my answers to the questions of others.
If you would like prayer, please don’t hesitate to contact me. “the prayer of faith shall save the sick” James 5:15
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Added Commentary
By Ricky-K
on 12.07.07
Hmm, I’m not quite sure what you are trying to get at here. Depression is a real illness caused by chemical imbalences in the brain and is influenced by genetic factors and also factors in the world around us (such as diet, lifestyle and personal issues) I don’t believe that suffering from clinical depression is down to disobeying God’s will - some people are born with it and suffer from it before and after they are saved.
I do believe though that there is a sort of spiritual depression (which I have experienced myself) where a Child of God is not walking as he should and can often feel the symptoms of depression because of his need to get right with God. They are two seperate things in my mind.
By Armen
on 12.07.07
Ricky - Let me be honest with you bro. I’ve been battling with this for three and a half years, trying to figure out what God’s mind is on the matter. I’d actually LOVE to believe that it can’t be helped, and I’ve been trying to convince myself that this is the case for nearly all of the three and a half years.
I’d actually love this post to bring out some civil discussion on the matter. I’d love to see what the majority of believers think, and their reasons, as long as it can all be done in love.
I’ll tell you where I battle. I could possibly understand that clinical depression itself is a sickness, and that possibly God might will a child of His to go through it. However, what I definately consider is against the will of God, is the common trend where such that suffer clinical depression, start committing gross idolatry with the ‘I’ god. Surely that can’t be excused?
What I’m also aware of, is the lack of discipline in the church, and the warning of illness and death that can be sent upon us because of our sin. Years ago when one was sick, one of the first things the Minister would address with the individual, was the possibility that they’ve disobeyed God and are living in sin. To do that now is considered seriously inconsiderate, judgemental, and ‘holier than thou’, when in fact, it’s biblical.
I’m in a position now where I have to think seriously about these things. I have to be careful that the notions of society and common ideas, are not what mould my thinking. It has to be the word of God.
By Tim Ellsworth
on 12.07.07
The video was a blessing, Armen. Thanks for posting it.
By Glenn
on 12.07.07
The video is challenging, and Nick is an example to us all.
Firstly, and briefly (as it is almost midnight here!) I would like to look at this statement:
“But like you said, all things work together for good. Isn
By Armen
on 12.07.07
Glenn - Thanks for the questions, they’ll help to clarify my thinking on the matter. As much as we all hate it, these are the type of things which need to be discussed.
Let it first be clarified, that what we’re talking about here is relating to blood-washed saints alone. Let it also be clarified, that God means what he says, and says what he means, and sometimes that might contradict modern philosophy.
Now let me answer your queries. As an example, lets consider the believers at Corinth, who were not partaking the Lord’s Supper in the right way. Paul said,
“For this cause many are weak and sickly among you. and many sleep…but when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.” 1 Cor 11:30,32
A few questions:
Was it God’s will that they take the Lord’s Supper? Yes. It was a means of grace for the believers, and partaking would “work together for good”, strengthening them to be more like Christ.
Was it God’s will that they approach with the wrong attitude? No. Their sin wasn’t going to “work together for good”.
Was it God’s will to cause some to be sick? Yes. In order to bring his children to repentance, he made them sick. The sickness was to “work together for good”, but it was never initially God’s intention. They were sick because of their sin, and their sickness was a mercy from God.
Would God have kept them sick, even after their repentance? It doesn’t say, but it can be confidently assumed, that because the sickness was a direct act of discipline for their sin, and it’s purpose was to cause them to repent, God would have removed the sickness once there had been sincere repentance.
To answer your second question, all illnesses may be a result of our sin. That is something that needs to be sought out between the individual and God. I know this is against what we hear today. Nowadays, the church hears someone is sick, and they pray for healing, when it may be that we ought to be praying for their repenetance. It’s not in every case obviously (like Paul’s thorn in the flesh), but it sometimes is. God wouldn’t have wanted other believers to pray for healing for the sickly Corinthians, he was wanting their repentance. However, what I was trying to say is, depression, although it may be a sickness, the outward fruit of it is more likely to produce sin than many other illnesses.
Let me further clarify that point by looking at the fruit of the Spirit again. Let’s take the first one, love. How do we biblically ‘love’? Is it an emotion? No. This is why marriages break up so easily today. They are founded on an emotional love, not a love of obedience. When God says, “the fruit of the Spirit is love…”, it is a command.
In a similar fashion, so is every other ‘fruit’ mentioned.
Gentleness - we are to be gentle.
Goodness - we are to be good.
Temperance - we are to be temperate.
Joy - we are to be joyful.
So getting back to the point, one can suffer with cancer, and still show all the fruit of the Spirit, including joy. Depression on the other hand, is a direct attack upon God’s command for us to be joyful. Do you understand me now?
Because clinical depression often leads to suicide, I can’t help but think it’s the devils way of populating Hell a lot faster. It’s estimated that there are over 200,000 suicides daily worldwide. Doesn’t it make sense?
I’ve given this quite a bit of thought, but I confess, I’m only a man, and I may be wrong. If so, teach me in s spirit of love.
By Glenn
on 12.07.07
Hello again ! :D
Yes…”the blood-washed saints alone” This verse is so often mis-quoted, stopping at the first half, and leaving people thinking that ” Yeah, I love God, so this verse is for me” when they have possibly never been born again.
“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”
Maybe this is about my impression of the meaning of “will” as in “God’s will”
Incidentally, I thought your quote from Corinthians was directed to those in the company who were not truely converted, but appearing to be, going along with the flow in everything the believers did.
But, for the sake of this discussion…if it believers coming to the Lord’s Table with the wrong attitude, is it not possible that it God’s will to allow this to happen, so that He could chasten, and further purify/refine His gold.
Is it not possible that the original sin, in the Garden of Eden, was God’s will, in order that His divine purposes would be fulfilled?
If as you suggest may be the case, depression is an illness like any other, would it not be true to say that the person did not have any choice in the matter? comment deserves another look IMHO
Glenn
( totally realizing that I very possibly have mis-construed ideas about things, and may be totally wrong ;) )
By Glenn
on 12.07.07
Hello again! Just noticed that my attempts of putting in some bold text didn’t work, so I will edit this paragraph ( putting in “was” a couple of places) Please read these with BOLD text :)
“But, for the sake of this discussion
By Armen
on 12.07.07
Glenn - My belief that the passage refers to believers, is construed from v32, “…that we should not be condemned with the world.”
I’ve checked a few commentaries, just to be double check though.
Matthew Henry says,
“The connection seems to imply that even those who were thus punished were in a state of favour with God”
Albert Barnes says,
“The death of Christians, in the Scriptures, is commonly represented under the image of sleep…notwithstanding all their irregularities, he does not deny that they were sincere Christians, and all his appeals and reasonings proceed on that supposition, though there was among them much ignorance and irregularity. God often visits his own people with trial; and though they are his children, yet this does not exempt them from affliction and discipline on account of their imperfections, errors, and sins.”
You said,
“is it not possible that it God
By Glenn
on 12.07.07
OK…point taken about Corinthians!
I’ve repeated a little bit ( editing another formatting mistake!)
If as you suggest may be the case, depression is an illness like any other, would it not be true to say that the person did not have any choice in the matter? Nicky-K’s comment deserves another look IMHO
BTW…I’m not saying in the slightest that illness or even death doesn’t come as a result of sin, and God’s chastisment…..I’m saying that it does not always.
I’ll mention Job again, he wished he had never been born, he longed for death, what are your views on his situation?
Glenn
By Armen
on 12.07.07
Glenn -
Perhaps. There are three possibilities for how it could come about (as I see it).
i) It’s an illness permitted, not as a result of sin, but as an affliction to prove the believer.
ii) It’s an illness chosen by the believer, through a sinful, inward, idolatrous attitude.
iii) It’s sent brought upon by God as a result of sin, to bring the believer to repentance.
In every case, regardless of which way it has come about, the neccessity for the believer to be obedient to God in living the fruit of the Spirit, is the same (from what I can see). His demands do not change.
Now, in relation to Job, he obviously is found in the first category. I am tempted to think that Job’s situation was/is completely unique. Not unique in what happened, but how it happened. Does Satan get this permission with men today? I’m not sure.
Getting to the point though, this affliction came upon him to prove him, not because of his sin. When Satan comes the first time, Job responds initially in such a way where he blesses God, and doesn’t sin (Job 1:20-22).
When Satan comes the second time to take away his health, again (initially), he doesn’t sin (Job 2:10).
However, time it seems, begins to break him down as we begin to read chapter 3, and he starts to curse the day he was born. With this change of heart, we find at the end, that Job has to repent of his sins against God (Job 42:6), and thereafter God pours His blessing upon him again.
Admittedly, Job isn’t a book I know well, so I hope I haven’t missed scriptures which contradict this overview.
By Glenn
on 12.07.07
Hello again!
Do you not think , that it was God’s will for Job to be plunged into the depths of despair (dare I say depression?) in order for him to ultimately be able to say ” but now mine eye seeth thee”.
I have just read the OP, and I must say it makes more sense than when I first read it ! ;)
Glenn
By Armen
on 12.07.07
Glenn - I would be more likely to think it was a benefit God brought out of Job’s repentance, by His grace. His despair/depression, caused him to sin against God (though not as greviously as his friends may have thought).
Maybe my mind is tired, but I can’t think of what you’re referring to. What is “OP”?
P.S. This discussion is really good for me, and I must thank you Glenn for taking the time to throw your thoughts out with mine.
By Glenn
on 12.07.07
OP= Original Post
I think ?!? B)
By Glenn
on 12.07.07
BTW it is good for me too…
Haven't you got anything to say?
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